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Post by Ryan Burger on Sept 20, 2005 15:51:15 GMT -5
People invest time and money in accumulating in-game money and items.
Are they real? If I steal your in-game stuff, should I be tried in court?
It would be awesome to get a discussion going on this!
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Post by tinytibb on Sept 21, 2005 16:32:32 GMT -5
haha
I'm a real gamer - I've been had, scammed, screwed, whatever you want to call it (I want to call it Diablo 2). I mean, ya... I guess it is wrong but if you want to get technical its not exactly theft anyways: the item didn't belong to you in the first place (read the warranty, all data is property of the game supplier!). It'll sure as hell rile you up, but so will someone calling you a (I want to say Lim, but thats probably too inside of a joke for a public forum :-P) ... bad... name. So you know... really... nah, I don't think there's much of a case to be had on that one.
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Aer
New Member
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Post by Aer on Sept 21, 2005 19:24:57 GMT -5
I have also read the disclaimer and stuff and it does say that the in-game material is property of the game supplier but i disagree with what he says. I think that if there were a case of in-game theft it should at least be handled by the game supplier (e.g. replacing the item, banning the thief, etc.). Anything worth stealing in-game must have taken a good amount of time to acquire. In some games, like WoW, that in-game time costs money. So in-game theft involves stealing in-game property as well as possible real money.
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Post by Ryan Burger on Sept 21, 2005 21:53:27 GMT -5
That is a good point that the property is legally owned by the company.
Do you agree with this, though? My goal isn't to rile you up, but isn't that kind of like the government claiming ownership of the money you make (granted, it claims taxes, but not complete ownership) because you earned it in the USA or even because they designed the dollar bill and regulate it?
Also, consider this: the fact that it's actually owned by Blizzard or Sony or whoever is largely a technicality. You ask anyone who their Sword of Turbo-Awesome belongs to, and they say, "me." In the future, could this mindset lead to actual legal ownership of game property via court rulings, etc?
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Post by shopee on Sept 22, 2005 11:01:28 GMT -5
Game currency is just as 'real' as our real-life currency. It is created as a conceptual construct, having no value in-and-of-itself.
Tried in court? Not unless the game supplier wants to run trials in game, keep in mind that the currency can only be exchanged for something of value within the game.
Currency-for-currency exchange does not provide for any true concept of value in either currency other than what each can be used for within their economic realms.
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Post by Mary Beth on Oct 4, 2005 21:27:01 GMT -5
So, I'm reading the terms and conditions for Project Entropia, thought this was interesting:
10. MindArk's Limitation of Responsibility The participant agree to not hold MindArk and affiliated subsidiaries, employees, contractors, officers, directors, telecommunications providers and content providers liable for any claims and expenses, including attorneys fees, that arise from a breach of this Agreement or are made by third parties related to your use of Project Entropia or the Internet, or in connection with your transmission of any content using Project Entropia.MindArk shall, in no event, be liable for any damages, loss or expense including without limitation, direct, indirect, special or consequential damage, or economic loss arising from the use of Project Entropia. MindArk's liability towards any Participant shall in each incidence be limited to no more than the initial amount transferred by said Participant into Project Entropia.MindArk reserves the right to interrupt Project Entropia with or without prior notice for any reason or no reason. You agree that MindArk will not be liable for any interruption of Project Entropia, delay or failure to perform.
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Post by nemoutopia on Oct 29, 2005 20:57:29 GMT -5
Yes and no. (this is my answer to just about everything, but the explanation follows). An MMO is a game. Like any game, time you invest into it is for fun, not for actually owned property. As has been stated, it is the legal property of the company anyway. However, because of player mindset ("it's MY character!"), there should be (and often are) penalties for "griefing" of this type. Griefing that is simple, like leaving your party in a bad situation incurs no penalty. However, offensive behavior, often including in-game theft, is punishable if petitioned by a player. Bans, restricitions, resotrations, and other things have been done in the past, and will continue to be done. However, any intelligent judge would just throw away a case of this type without looking at it. Primary argument: it's a game, and if something can happen within the structure of the game that is not against the rules, you should be ready for it to happen. If it IS against the rules, it is the moderator's concern to handle it. I haven't checked out Entropia, but I think it has the potential to change the way much of this concern is viewed by the public. After all, if the point of the game IS investment and return, isn't that just like banking? Anyone have toughts on that?
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akimbo
New Member
9th Floor n00b
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Post by akimbo on Oct 31, 2005 3:05:31 GMT -5
I believe, as most have, that the line between the digital and physical possessions should never be crossed. A judge even considering making a ruling on something which does not actually exist is completely insane. That would be like me playing Halo and suing another player because he killed me and took my gun. If those days ever come, woe is the internet lol.
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Post by dvideogamer on Nov 1, 2005 16:19:39 GMT -5
Well maybe this is me just having a limited understanding of the topic, but it seems to me if the company technically owns the money you make then you would have no right to sell it for real world currency unless of course it is specified you can do so.
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Post by Ryan Burger on Nov 1, 2005 17:29:26 GMT -5
That's very true. Buying and selling of in-game property is prohibited under most games' terms of use. But it still happens a lot.
As far as Project Entropia, I've put it down as a complicated way to gamble. That's why they have the 'we're not responsible for economic loss' statement in the terms of use.
Something to bear in mind: all it takes is one major court case declaring that in-game property can be privately owned and you've got a precedent on which the outcome of all other relevant cases can be based.
akimbo implies that in-game property, mere files on servers, does not actually exist. But the RIAA has sued numerous music downloaders (for massive amounts of money) for downloading music files that are equally intangible. Shopee makes a good point that real money has value only because we give it value. If people choose to give game money and property value, it will have value.
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